|
Post by Michael Lofton on Jan 13, 2015 19:30:41 GMT
From a Protestant perspective, how can Christians know which books are inspired by God, and which are not?
|
|
|
Post by Jay on Jan 13, 2015 23:52:22 GMT
Here are some tests a protestant can use to determine what which books are inspired by God, and which are not: 1- was it written by a prophet? 2- was it written by an apostle or one associated with one? 3- does the book tell the truth about God? 4- Does it affirm what Christ and His apostles taught?
These are a few of the tests a Protestant can use to determine if a book is inspired by God.
|
|
|
Post by Michael Lofton on Jan 14, 2015 14:29:41 GMT
Jay,
You say
1. Where did you get these tests from and how do you know they are sufficient?
2. How do you know the Gospel of Matthew as written by an Apostle, since the Gospel doesn't identify the writer?
3. How do you know if the book tells the truth about God without appealing to Scripture, since we are trying to determine what is considered to be Scripture.
4. How do you know what Christ and His apostles taught without appealing to Scriptue, since we are trying to determine what is considered to be Scripture.
|
|
|
Post by Jay on Jan 14, 2015 16:28:46 GMT
1- Probably from common sense and what the church at the time believed. There is no reason to think that the church in the first century did not know who wrote the gospels or the letters. They would not have accepted an anonymous work as Scripture. They would have known who wrote it. 2- Papias 3-You can't know "if the book tells the truth about God without appealing to Scripture". There are "foundational" books in the Scriptures that Jews and Christians consider to be authoritative from the start. For the OT it was the books of Moses. These books lay the foundation for the rest of the OT. For the NT, it was the gospels. 4- You cannot know "what Christ and His apostles taught without appealing to Scripture" because all that we have from them is found only in the NT.
|
|
|
Post by Michael Lofton on Jan 14, 2015 16:39:09 GMT
You say
1. So, you have to rely on tradition from the Church in order to know what is Scritpure, because you can't know what is Scripture without pointing to what the Church has said in tradition (i.e. the Church fathers).
2. How do you know Papias was right, after all we only know what Papias said based on Eusebius who wrote later. Also, Papias affirmed a literal millenial kingdom and said it came from Jesus, something I don't think you would affirm.
3. You can only know which Gospels were Apostolic because of tradition, and it is this same source that affirms Apostolic succession, which you deny.
4. The same sources that tell us what are authentic Scriptures of the Apostles and Jesus also tell us they passed on oral traditions not written down in Scripture. As St. Basil says:
So the very sources to which you appeal to affirm the canon and Sola Scriptura, are the very sources who deny your shorter canon and deny Sola Scriptura.
|
|
|
Post by Jay on Jan 14, 2015 16:51:14 GMT
1- No problem appealing to a tradition if that is all we have. 2- We have no reason not accept Papias on this issue. "He is described as "an ancient man who was a hearer of John and a companion of Polycarp" by Polycarp's disciple Irenaeus (c. 180)." We have no reason not to accept this. This does not mean Papias was right about everything. 3-What apostolic "tradition"? Again, not all traditions are right and Scripture does not teach apostolic succession. Bishops and apostles are 2 different offices and the qualifications for each are different. 4- Again, give me an example of something that Jesus said and did that is not recorded in the Scripture and tell me how you know this? What facts do you have that confirm this?
In regards to the canon issue, we both know from history that the OT apocrypha was in dispute for centuries. It was not considered inspired-inerrant Scripture by the Jews or the church and it was not until Trent that it was infallibly declared to be Scripture. That is over 1500 years.
|
|
|
Post by Michael Lofton on Jan 14, 2015 17:36:25 GMT
Jay,
You say
It is interesting you accept the tradition of the early Church as to what was written by the Apostles, yet you reject much of what they taught.
As far as the canon, as I have explained elsewhere to you, Esther was disputed among the Jews as late as the fourth Century, likewise among the Church just as late.
Here is what I said
|
|
|
Post by Jay on Jan 14, 2015 19:52:09 GMT
A church can be right about some things and wrong about others. I have no counter facts or reasons not accept that the early church got it right about the NT canon. If someone wants to present some arguments and facts to show I am wrong then present them.
If "The Jews disputed Esther even until the fourth century A.D" what led them to include it in the canon of the OT?
Didn't Jerome accept Esther as Scripture?
|
|
|
Post by Michael Lofton on Jan 14, 2015 20:04:33 GMT
Jay,
You say
How do you determine the Church was right about the canon but wrong about other doctrines?
You ask
On part of why the Jews now accept Esther, I do not know.
You ask
Off hand I do not know.
|
|
|
Post by Jay on Jan 14, 2015 20:17:34 GMT
I already stated how we can know that they got the canon right by the tests they applied. We can know if a church gets its doctrines right by seeing if they are supported by the Scripture. If they are not supported by the Scripture then they are the teachings of men.
|
|
|
Post by Michael Lofton on Jan 14, 2015 20:39:39 GMT
Jay,
I think I'll just move on at this point when it comes to this topic.
|
|